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LH707


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#43927 08-09-2012 GMT-5 hours    
Hi all,

After an 8-year hiatus I'm getting back into modeling with the big Heller 707 in 1960s Lufthansa colors. I've done a bit of forum searching, and have a few more questions, chiefly about painting:

1. Wing/fuse gaps: I've read it's best to screw the top half of the wing to the fuse first to eliminate the gap. Anybody have a bad experience with that?
2. Engine orientation: is there a sure-fire way to ensure they don't angle up too much?
3. Gear strength: I've read the gear is a bit flimsy, and one should use CA and not model cement. I've only ever used quick-dry CA that leaves a film, is there a better stuff to use? When should one use CA vs. model cement?
4. Paint:
a. My previous models (1:144 fighters) I painted with a brush. With a big airliner, is it better to spray or airbrush to get a smoother finish?
b. If I'm shooting for a white topside and alu belly, what primer is a good color? Is automotive primer good or should I use hobby-specific stuff?
c. I've read that it's best to sand, primer, sand with 1000 grit, paint topcoat, polish, clearcoat, decals, and another clearcoat. Is this a good sequence, or am I missing something?
d. Aluminum foil vs. Alclad: I've read there's no substitute for foil, but it seems easy to mess up. Is there a detailed article or video describing it and where in the paint sequence it should go? What does one do with engine pylons?

If there's a repository of articles that I somehow missed, please excuse the noob mistake.

Thanks in advance.

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#43928 08-09-2012 GMT-5 hours    
Welcome back to the hobby. I'll try to help as I can:

1. Not sure what you mean by "screw the top half of the wing to the fuselage first." I'd recommend putting the wing section together and then joining the whole assembly to the fuselage. Run a length of tape from each wingtip to over the top of the fuselage, which will help close that gap a bit and improve wing dihedral. When the dihedral looks right and is even on both sides, use super glue to bond the wing at the roots and along the belly. Eliminate the rest of the gap with epoxy putty, which you can sculpt with a wet fingertip or cotton swab. Done properly this will eliminate the gap without much effort.
2. I've never found that a problem on the Heller kit, but I'll defer to others on this question.
3. Never had a problem with the hobby-oriented CA I use leaving a film. Try either the Zap brand or the Bob Smith stuff a lot of hobby shops sell as a house brand.
4a. Very definitely use an airbrush or rattle cans. If you brush-paint the Heller 707 you'll never get it finished. It's a lot of surface area.
4b. Some folks like the Plasti-kote automotive primers, which are available in gray or white (T-235 and T-237), and those larger cans may be more economical for this project. Dust on the first coats so you don't etch the plastic. I tend to use the Tamiya spray primers, but they're expensive.
4c. My personal sequence: do the bodywork, lay down an initial coat of primer, then fix any flaws and hit it with another coat of primer to even things out (this will especially help you deal with the Heller kit's slightly pebbly texture). Sand that with 1000 grit or similar to knock down any remaining surface flaws, then do the finish coats. Once all finish coats are done, clear-coat with Future so the decals have a glossy surface to lay down on. When decals are set use whatever topcoat is called for (on airliners, usually a semi-gloss like the Testors Acryl Semi-Gloss clear).
4d. I may be in the minority here, but I generally think foil looks overdone and out-of-scale unless it's very, very skillfully done. It's also the devil itself to work with unless you have a ton of time and patience. I prefer Alclad or any of the metallic paints that are out there, which are much easier to work with and take less time. Anything that you want looking really, really shiny can be polished up with polishing powder, like the SnJ powder. So far as the engines go, a friend of mine who built the Heller 707 many years ago found it best to paint the engines before installing them on the wing. He filled the gaps and did finish work, then painted everything else. Since the engines were already painted the nooks and crannies were already dealt with.

Hope this will help. Good luck.

Fly Alaska's first airline. Wien Air Alaska.

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#43939 08-10-2012 GMT-5 hours    
NX28388, Many thanks for all the tips.

1. I found a link to what I was referring to regarding the wing join, check this thread out. Good story, but if you scroll down to the wing description you'll see what I'm referring to.
3. Got the Bob Smith stuff, I've used it before and it's good.
4a/b. I ended up buying the Tamiya primer as well because the guys in the shop highly recommended it.
4c. For the clear-coat, where do I get Future? I have a can of Tamiya Color TS-79 Semi-gloss clear, but on the cap it says "Do not spray on decals or stickers." I only noticed this after I got home, otherwise I would have grabbed something else. Can I disregard this and use it, or will this stuff eat the decals?
4d. When I asked about the pricing of an airbrush+compressor to use with alclad I had a bit of sticker shock, so they suggested I use the Tamiya colors aluminum paint rattle can and then polish it up. Do you know how shiny I can get this with toothpaste?

Couple new questions:
5. For hand-painted parts like the engines, gear, etc., should I prime them all first or just grab a brush and go to the races?
6. The Heller kit has deep grooves in the wingtip that run chordwise starting from the front corner and staying inboard about a centimeter. Are these grooves cut lines to make the blunter -420/-320 wing tip?

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#43942 08-10-2012 GMT-5 hours    
Quote
LH707 :5. For hand-painted parts like the engines, gear, etc., should I prime them all first or just grab a brush and go to the races?
Appropriate primer will help hand painting flow better. At least it does for me.

Screw the rivets, I'm building for atmosphere

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#43943 08-10-2012 GMT-5 hours    
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modeltrains :
Quote
LH707 :5. For hand-painted parts like the engines, gear, etc., should I prime them all first or just grab a brush and go to the races?
Appropriate primer will help hand painting flow better. At least it does for me.



Even for small bits like gear legs and tires? For engine pylons I can understand the priming....

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#43949 08-10-2012 GMT-5 hours    
Hmmm. I'd never thought of screwing the wing to the fuselage at the root like that. My concern would be that unless you reinforced it a lot, over time if the wings sagged it'd split the seam at the top of the fuselage. I think you'd be better served to close the seam with super glue and epoxy once you have the proper dihedral.

The Future I speak of is the same stuff you use on vinyl and acrylic floors, available at most grocery stores, home improvement stores, etc. It's now marketed as something like "Pledge with Future Shine" or something like that. I apply it with an airbrush, but it can also be brushed if need be, or I also use a cotton swab for spot application (if I need some to help a decal settle in, for instance). A bottle of it will cost you about $6 and will last for many, many models.

If the Tamiya spray clear warns you against using it over decals, play it safe and don't do it. Future is generally kind to decals unless you flood it on.

Using toothpaste to polish over the Tamiya aluminum will give a car model effect - you'll polish the top coat on it and get the surface flaws out, but you won't increase the metallic shine of it. For that you will need aluminum buffing powder. Using metallic powder you can get a pretty nice shine.

On priming small parts, it depends on where it will be and what the final color will be. I generally prime those that will be painted light colors, or that need to match other parts that were primed before top coat. For parts that will be darker colors, I tend to not bother.

BTW, if you plan to build models, don't be shy about investing in a good airbrush and compressor. I bought my compressor online for about $100, and you can get a decent airbrush for $100 or less. If you plan to build more models, it's inevitable you will want an airbrush. Think of it as a tool you're investing in, same as if you were buying a bandsaw or a drill press for a wood shop. There's an initial outlay but over time it pays for itself.

Fly Alaska's first airline. Wien Air Alaska.

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#43957 08-10-2012 GMT-5 hours    
Future's no longer called Future, you'll find it under "Pledge - with the Future shine" floor wax brand.
Regards
Eduardo

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Forget about all you've learned on thrust, drag, lift, weight... if you want a plane to fly you need MONEY.

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#43959 08-11-2012 GMT-5 hours    
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NX28388 :
For that you will need aluminum buffing powder. Using metallic powder you can get a pretty nice shine.



Where do I find this stuff? Hobby store?

As far as investing in an airbrush, I doubt I'll build too many models after this, because my apartment is small and I lack the space to put them all. What I will do is go get some future though, sounds like good stuff.

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#43961 08-11-2012 GMT-5 hours    
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NX28388 :
The Future I speak of is the same stuff you use on vinyl and acrylic floors, available at most grocery stores, home improvement stores, etc. It's now marketed as something like "Pledge with Future Shine" or something like that. I apply it with an airbrush, but it can also be brushed if need be, or I also use a cotton swab for spot application (if I need some to help a decal settle in, for instance). A bottle of it will cost you about $6 and will last for many, many models.


Would using a sponge brush get a smooth finish with Future, or would I need to get a hold of an airbrush for that?

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#43963 08-11-2012 GMT-5 hours    
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LH707 :
Would using a sponge brush get a smooth finish with Future, or would I need to get a hold of an airbrush for that?



You'll get better results from spraying it. Even the little $20 or so Testors spray setup that runs off propellant cans, the kind most hobby shops carry, will likely give you better results than brushing it-plus you can use it for paint as well as Future.

BTW, after spraying Future through a spray gun or airbrush, spray Windex or isopropyl alcohol through the airbrush afterward to clean it out.

As for polishing powders, here's one source - he's temporarily suspended orders for now, but this is the stuff I use:
http://www.hawkeyeshobbies.com/nmf-polishing-powders.htm

Fly Alaska's first airline. Wien Air Alaska.

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#43971 08-11-2012 GMT-5 hours    
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NX28388 :
You'll get better results from spraying it. Even the little $20 or so Testors spray setup that runs off propellant cans, the kind most hobby shops carry, will likely give you better results than brushing it-plus you can use it for paint as well as Future.



Thanks again for all the advice. I did some research and found an airbrush+compressor kit on Amazon for $50, so I grabbed it. Now I can go get some alclad as well to make the belly and wings look more realistic.

I've read that alclad is best primed with black paint, should I do the prime/sand cycle with the entire model and then paint the top white and the bottom black/alclad?

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#43973 08-11-2012 GMT-5 hours    
Yes, paint the white and mask what needs to stay white, then spray the black and then the Alclad.

Fly Alaska's first airline. Wien Air Alaska.

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#43975 08-11-2012 GMT-5 hours    
Alclad does not - repeat not - need a gloss black primer under it unless you are trying to duplicate chrome plate. For normal aluminum shades typically seen on aircraft, a gray or even white primer will suffice.

Michael McMurtrey
IPMS-USA #1746
IPMS-Canada #1426
Carrollton, Texas

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#43989 08-13-2012 GMT-5 hours    
Can I paint other enamel colors and Future over alclad? I'm thinking of giving the whole underside and engines the aluminum look and then changing details for the inlet, turbocompressor exhausts, and the core exhaust.

Also, what's the best way of masking the windows for painting? Should I use a brush-on masking film for that and leave it in place until the paint is done? Do I spray Future over the windows?

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#43997 08-13-2012 GMT-5 hours    
Yes, you can apply other enamel colors and Future over Alclad, but as you are using Alclad to start, I'd suggest using other Alclad shades instead of enamels to simulate different metallic effects. Whatever you do, I'd suggest allowing 72 hours for the basic Alclad finish to thoroughly dry/cure before overpainting it.

There are probably as many masking techniques as there are modelers, but either brush-on masking fluid or tape should work. And Future can be sprayed over windows; in fact, many modelers of military aircraft dip entire canopies in Future to make them clearer and shinier.

Michael McMurtrey
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IPMS-Canada #1426
Carrollton, Texas

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#43999 08-13-2012 GMT-5 hours    
Thanks, I think I'll go grab some masking fluid, because I think tape would be too clunky.

Also, can one brush on small bits of alclad (e.g. chrome inlets), or is that a bad idea?

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#44005 08-14-2012 GMT-5 hours    
I wouldn't try brushing Alclad. It is a lacquer-based product, and will dissolve any other paint finishes (including Alclad) that you might brush it on top of.

But it can be masked using Post-It Notes or a low-tack tape such as Tamiya's.

Michael McMurtrey
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#44025 08-15-2012 GMT-5 hours    
For the windows, what's the best way of making sure paint doesn't seep in around them? Should one put glue in the seams, or is there a window-filler stuff that works better?

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#44036 08-17-2012 GMT-5 hours    
You can use putty or cyanoacrylate glue. if you use the latter, dip the windows in Future/Pledge with Future Shine first and allow them to thoroughly dry before installing. This will prevent fogging of the clear parts from the glue fumes.

Elmer's white glue also works. Elmers' makes a clear school glue which is water-soluble and which I am going to try the next time I have clear parts to install. I picked up a bottle of it yesterday at the local Michael's.

Testors' makes a clear parts glue which comes in a spiffy applicator bottle. I have some but have never tried it so can't comment on its usefulness.

Michael McMurtrey
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#44037 08-17-2012 GMT-5 hours    
Ok, I'll go with the future-dipped windows on that one. For the cockpit canopy, is regular plastic cement the best way to go? It seems like the seam will be far enough away from the actual window piece that there won't be a glue bead across it.

Another question, should I get some sort of decal set solution to paint on the to-be-decaled areas, or just dip them in water and put them on between clear coats?

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#44038 08-17-2012 GMT-5 hours    
Regular plastic cement should work fine for the cockpit canopy. Give it plenty of time to dry, then mask off the windows to protect them and gently sand the seam until it disappears.

You are using liquid cement and not "tube glue," right?

Michael McMurtrey
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#44042 08-17-2012 GMT-5 hours    
I'm using the Testors stuff that comes out of a tube with one of the needle-shaped applicators. Ought I use a thinner one?

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#44051 08-17-2012 GMT-5 hours    
Also, how should one sand between the vortex generators on the wing and tail?

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#44052 08-17-2012 GMT-5 hours    
Hi,

out of curiosity, why do you want to sand between the vortex generators? Isn't there a smooth surface between/under them?

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#44053 08-17-2012 GMT-5 hours    
Quote
LH707 :
I'm using the Testors stuff that comes out of a tube with one of the needle-shaped applicators. Ought I use a thinner one?



I'm not familiar with that Testor's product.

For years I have used nothing but liquid cement applied with a brush; I've used straight MEK, but my current favorite is Tamiya's Extra Thin. If I need a thicker cement, I use Faller Super Expert cement. It comes in an orange plastic bottle with a needle applicator and is thicker than liquid but thinner than tube cement.

The nice thing about liquid cement is that you can apply it very sparingly to a small area with a fine brush. It's also nice for joining join large parts, like fuselage halves; you can fit the parts together then apply the cement to the seam and let capillary action draw the cement into it.

As to decals, I've always used MicroSet and MicroSol. They work in about 98% of the cases. For a stronger decal setting solution, such as where the decal needs to go on top of a lot of surface details/irregularities, Walthers Solvaset usually does the trick.

Michael McMurtrey
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IPMS-Canada #1426
Carrollton, Texas

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#44075 08-19-2012 GMT-5 hours    
747-400, I mostly want to sand right up next to them without sanding them down too much, and wondered what the best technique is for that. I guess a sanding stick will do the trick.

I've noticed that the window pieces do not fully fill out the holes, so I'm considering using a different filler. Would something like Microscale Krystal Klear do the trick? I noticed that smaller kits tend not to have window pieces, is the idea to fill them with such a product?

Next, once the paint coat is on and polished, is it better to go future>micro-set>decals>micro-sol>future, or is there a better order? Also, with the cheat line decal, should I cut out the bit that will be over the window, or is the film clear enough that I can leave it as one panel and not worry about it? Will micro-set damage windows?

Thanks again for answering all these questions.

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#44080 08-19-2012 GMT-5 hours    
FWIW, the window openings on the Heller kit are too large and not shaped correctly for 707 windows. That's why I produced the decals I did way back when...

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#44086 08-20-2012 GMT-5 hours    
i forgot about the size and shape of the Heller 707 windows; Jennings is correct. Your best bet would be to find some 1/72 window decals for this kit. Then you can just cement the windows in place, putty, and sand until you have a nice smooth surface on which to apply the window decals.

if you are using Micro Set and Micro Sol, it is not necessary to apply Future first, especially if you have a nice, smooth paint finish. After the paint is dry and smoothed/polished to your satisfaction, apply the decals and allow them to thoroughly dry. Then use a moistened cotton swab or soft cloth (one of the new microfiber cloths, for example) to gently wash the model and remove any residue from the Micro products. Once it is dry, then apply Future or another gloss medium.

As far as cheat lines are concerned, I usually cut them into smaller pieces myself. They are easier to apply that way. But I usually apply the cheat line first then apply the window decals on top.

Michael McMurtrey
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IPMS-Canada #1426
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#44090 08-20-2012 GMT-5 hours    
Jennings, thanks for that advice. You're right about the window shape, they look a bit too rectangular. I'm not sure that the decals I ordered have window decals in there, are these tinted decals to simulate darker cabins?

Will the windows (I think I'll go with Krystal Klear to avoid gaps) get scratched and cloudy from sanding, or is it ok as long as it's 1000 grit? I was thinking of sanding the fuselage first, installing the windows, and then masking to fine sand. Should I sand the windows as well and rely on the Future to remove clouds?

Skyking, thanks for the tip on cutting the cheat lines, that would greatly simplify things. You guys are rock stars for helping me. I'll post a few build pics here soon.

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#44092 08-20-2012 GMT-5 hours    
Flight deck


Main gear leg

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#44100 08-21-2012 GMT-5 hours    
Looks like the decals you have ordered do not have windows, only clear film to allow the kit windows to show through. I'm sure someone makes 1/72 window decals for this kit, just can't remember who at the moment. You might try here:

Airline Hobby Supplies

If using window decals, cement the kit windows in place with plastic cement or cyanoacrylate, allow to dry, putty gaps, and sand flush with fuselage sides. Paint your fuselage color(s), allow that to dry, then apply cheat lines and window decals on top.

Looks like you've got some overspray around the wheel hubs. One technique is to paint hubs first, then use a fine brush and thinned paint to apply the tire color. Capillary will flow the paint into the crease between hub and tire, giving you a nice clean separation.

Michael McMurtrey
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IPMS-Canada #1426
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#44108 08-22-2012 GMT-5 hours    
Thanks for that site, I'll go scope it out later this week when I have some time. I will also need to find a set of the PW eagle logos somewhere.

As I was test fitting the port outboard wing sections, I noticed they had a wavy warp to them just outside the number 1 engine mount. Will this go away if I glue it and let it cure on a flat surface, or should I insert an outboard spar like a chicken skewer to stiffen and straighten it?

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#44133 08-25-2012 GMT-5 hours    
If the wings are not too badly warped, they should go away when the sections are assembled. I have fixed warped wings by using rubber bands to hold the assembled pieces to a metal straightedge until they are thoroughly dry. The chicken skewer idea is a good one, too. I'd epoxy it to one half and set it on a flat surface with something heavy on top until the epoxy sets, then assemble both wings.

However, long, thin wings like the 707's did have some droop at the tip, so you don't want to straighten the wing too much, else it will look like someone has given the airplane a scare.

Michael McMurtrey
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IPMS-Canada #1426
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#44147 08-26-2012 GMT-5 hours    
Good call on the straight-edge, I'll have to test-fit that to see if it works. The warping is a wave about 2-3 mm deflection from straight right around the #1 pylon, and then extra outboard dihedral. I ordered some 1.8 mm carbon rods to use as spars, locally these will keep it straight while hopefully allowing enough droop. I've read a couple posts about the Heller kit having too much droop due to the architecture (center wing bottom ends at inboard engines, then outboard bottom section), so hopefully these spars will get it bang on.

Also, I highly recommend the Krystal Klear to anybody making this kit, it greatly simplifies the window install process.

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#44230 09-07-2012 GMT-5 hours    
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skyking918 :
If the wings are not too badly warped, they should go away when the sections are assembled. I have fixed warped wings by using rubber bands to hold the assembled pieces to a metal straightedge until they are thoroughly dry. The chicken skewer idea is a good one, too. I'd epoxy it to one half and set it on a flat surface with something heavy on top until the epoxy sets, then assemble both wings.


Good call on the flat surface with the weights. My problem wing is now mostly fixed, although it still has a bit of warping, but that's only noticeable if you're alerted to it first. The epoxy cured really quickly in my warm house, so I didn't have as much time to fiddle as I'd have liked. I put the epoxy in the fridge before I do the next wing so I get more time to fix it.

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#44362 09-17-2012 GMT-5 hours    
Before I spend huge amounts of time sanding, what grit do you suggest I get surfaces to before priming? I'm thinking of going to 1000, is it worth going up to 1500 before this, or will the paint fill those little gaps anyway?

Also, on the topic of masking, should I remove the mask in between coats to prevent peeling and little seams as the paint dries, or can I just leave it on for all of the black/alclad cycle and remove it at the end? Will Scotch 3M blue painter's tape work, or should I avoid this?

Another question: engines. I would ideally like to paint and decal these separately and then attach them, but I'd like to avoid the seam on the top side where the pylon and wing meet. Should I test fit, paint, glue, and then sand/touch-up the area?

Last one: some of the 707s had a grayish color on the wing/body fairing, does anybody know where under the wing this extended to?

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