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      JEE3


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      Post #31634, posted on 03-05-2010 GMT-5 hours    

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      JEE3


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      Post #52517, posted on 03-25-2014 GMT-5 hours    
      Finally Chapter 1-Hope you'll enjoy and feel free to question anything. Thanks to Chris 'braniff2' and Eric'baby9' of course!!




      John

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      norherman


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      Post #52518, posted on 03-25-2014 GMT-5 hours    
      John

      In your research did you ever find that Braniff ever painted their early 727's in the Red White and blue colors or did they all come from Boeing in the sold colors?

      Dave
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      Post #52519, posted on 03-25-2014 GMT-5 hours    
      Dave:

      There is that 727 Boeing created illustration out there that has a 727 in the 'pepsi' scheme for the order announcement but we have some color early '66 flightline photos (from the private collection) that show that they were ALL "JB" 727-27's. Don't forget the first 727C deliveries began in May '66, some 6-months into the "JB-era". In the "Painting Tips" for the 727, the confusing situation with the Reg. numbers will be covered. BI took over the PNA 727-62 order and gave them the next group of higher numbers but the -62's were being delivered in the same timeframe that the lower original BI ordered -27C's were, so you had N7272 sitting next to N7283! This would mean many more 727-delivered 'pastels' then we expected. The confusion is just getting started!!!


      John

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      sky303


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      Post #52524, posted on 03-26-2014 GMT-5 hours    
      All I can say is thank you! Great stuff!

      Rob
      KATL
      Captain, you'll be in charge of this flight
      when I unhook the towbar!

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      Jennings


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      Post #52528, posted on 03-26-2014 GMT-5 hours    
      Great stuff!!

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      Post #52529, posted on 03-26-2014 GMT-5 hours    
      Thanks guys! You can see how the tone changes in both the Eric 727 and the chip as you scroll through but nothing can be done for that. Both Chris & Eric have their busy work periods but now that we've started, should be able to keep a slow but steady flow of Chapters. Feel free to question or argue anything we mention, as through Ben (BFC-Facebook), we have good BI records that can be sourced. Should be fun year or so!!




      John

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      Jeff Jarvis


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      Post #52578, posted on 03-31-2014 GMT-5 hours    
      Quote
      norherman :

      In your research did you ever find that Braniff ever painted their early 727's in the Red White and blue colors or did they all come from Boeing in the sold colors?




      Greetings!

      Dave, the 727 airplanes were not ordered by the Beard administration, but by the Lawrence administration. When Charles Beard was running Braniff, he committed to the BAC 1-11 and Braniff held options on more 1-11's. Before his fleet renewal plans were fully undertaken, he was ousted by the new owners of Braniff. They brought in Harding Lawrence to replace Beard. Lawrence apparently hated the 1-11 and the Electra and also wasted no time in parking the remaining DC-6 and DC-7 fleet and changing the Braniff image with the JB colors, new uniforms, etc. In addition, he ordered the 727's and 707-320C's and bid on military contracts to increase the Braniff reach. The switchover to the new image was done with amazing speed, and no more 1-11's entered the fleet, the Electra's started disappearing fairly quickly as more and more 727's were delivered, and then PANAGRA was also integrated starting on February 1, 1967. The PANAGRA DC-8-62 order was delivered from August/September of 1967 and quickly took over most of the South America schedules.

      The 727, 707-320C and DC-8-62 were all JB (or later schemes) deliveries.

      Regards,
      Jeff Jarvis

      God's "Curse" to aviation!

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      JEE3


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      Post #52580, posted on 03-31-2014 GMT-5 hours    
      Jeff:

      Why did they sell all the L-188's in 1968 then lease them back for 1-yr? For tax purposes? One of the mysteries that we haven't found an answer for is why the L-188's never got the FULL Black Mask! Since the first L-188 in the JB scheme was the ex-Cathay A/C lease that F.B. Ayer did the paint job on (after the One-Eleven fatal accident) and was quite unique, using a smaller "BI" tail logo and differently spaced titles, we think it may have been an error that they decided to stay with when BI did their first JB repaint a short time later. We'll cover all the details in the L-188 "Painting Tips".



      John

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      Post #52582, posted on 03-31-2014 GMT-5 hours    
      Wow. Just...Wow. You guys are doing an awesome job on this, in what has to be a tremendous amount of work. First and foremost, thank you a dozen times over for tackling this subject; I remember being far too young and overly amazed back in the mid '70s at the rainbow colors of the BN fleet whenever my father would fly out of KOKC on business (oh, for the days of taking a DL TriStar 500 from KATL to KAGS to get to Fort Gordon! But I digress... ;))

      Whatever the issues of the day may have been, and whatever role they played in BN's demise, you sure can't argue that they didn't have an effective marketing team

      As to this:

      Quote
      JEE3 :
      Jeff:

      Why did they sell all the L-188's in 1968 then lease them back for 1-yr? For tax purposes? One of the mysteries that we haven't found an answer for is why the L-188's never got the FULL Black Mask! Since the first L-188 in the JB scheme was the ex-Cathay A/C lease that F.B. Ayer did the paint job on (after the One-Eleven fatal accident) and was quite unique, using a smaller "BI" tail logo and differently spaced titles, we think it may have been an error that they decided to stay with when BI did their first JB repaint a short time later. We'll cover all the details in the L-188 "Painting Tips".

      John



      I can't speak to the black framing question, but the most common reason for the purchase/sale/lease-back scheme in both aviation and other industries has to do with accounting, and how assets are depreciated; in essence, you're fooling with numbers. In BN's case (and as with so many others who followed...) it wasn't/isn't necessarily the best way to handle your financial affairs, corporate or personal. Then again, it's done all the time the world over, so somewhere out there an accountant must be earning his or her keep.

      On a further tangent, many folks don't know that the Electra (as well as other aircraft of similar vintage) were purchased by airlines as complete units, but with leased engines. There's a fairly extensive description of this in one of the Electra books I've got--think it's the Great Airliners one, but I'm not sure. There were various reasons for this scheme, including the reduced direct costs of acquisition and ownership, as well as those related to things like maintenance, etc. Seems a bit like buying a new car but leasing the transaxle, but there you go .

      And when you get to the L-188 portion of the guide, don't forget that there was but one airline who managed to make theirs last long enough to become "Electra III" airframes...I'll give you exactly one guess as to who that turned out to be

      Keep up the great work, and on a quick personal tangent, I'm still doing some digging for you on the Interior writeup.

      Cheers

      Rob in AK

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      Post #52583, posted on 03-31-2014 GMT-5 hours    
      Thanks Rob!

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      Post #52586, posted on 04-01-2014 GMT-5 hours    
      Quote
      JEE3 :

      Why did they sell all the L-188's in 1968 then lease them back for 1-yr? For tax purposes? One of the mysteries that we haven't found an answer for is why the L-188's never got the FULL Black Mask! Since the first L-188 in the JB scheme was the ex-Cathay A/C lease that F.B. Ayer did the paint job on (after the One-Eleven fatal accident) and was quite unique, using a smaller "BI" tail logo and differently spaced titles, we think it may have been an error that they decided to stay with when BI did their first JB repaint a short time later.


      Hello John,

      I have no idea for sure why they would do that sell and lease back, but Rob probably is on the right track above, or possibly they found a buyer for the fleet at the right price but still needed the capacity temporarily. And, the leasing of jet engines was also very common in the early jet years, and is in fact how Francisco Lorenzo broke into the airline business through a company called Jet Power which made lots of money leasing engines.

      As far as the black mask on the Electra is concerned, although I have never seen a photo of one with the full mask, I could swear that I saw one around 1967 in either Houston-Hobby or Dallas-Love Field. At the time, I was riding on a still red, white and blue Electra myself, possibly the last one not in the JB scheme.

      Regarding the PANAGRA colors, I might be opening a can of worms here, but I remember the props in the 1950's having a more pastel creamy lemon yellow and a lighter green than what the DC-8's were delivered in. One of the problems, of course, is proving it was so, and is not just a faulty memory. Photos do not prove it because over the years, and depending on how they are stored, Kodachrome color slides as well as photographic prints suffer from color shift and fading. The only things I have seen that support my beliefs are some of the ads in the old National Geographic magazines of the time, and the remembrance of thinking at the time that the shades were different on the new DC-8-31 when seen in the company of the DC-6B and DC-7B. Perhaps I'll find some proof some day.......

      Regards,
      Jeff Jarvis

      God's "Curse" to aviation!

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      Post #52587, posted on 04-01-2014 GMT-5 hours    
      Quote
      RAA188 :
      And when you get to the L-188 portion of the guide, don't forget that there was but one airline who managed to make theirs last long enough to become "Electra III" airframes...I'll give you exactly one guess as to who that turned out to be




      Hi Rob,

      Uhhhhhhhhh........ Did they fly out of PANC towards a bunch of desolate, windswept islands?????

      JJ

      God's "Curse" to aviation!

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      Post #52590, posted on 04-01-2014 GMT-5 hours    
      Jeff:

      Two interesting observations! If there was a JB L-188 in a full Black Mask, that would seem to validate that F.B. Ayer DID make a mistake with the initial "JB" L-188 repaint! The Green especially in some of the print ads does seem lighter than the actual DC-8. I found a Panagra DC-8 illustration in the DC-7 scheme and it also does appear a different tone. The file developing at the time really effected the Panagra photos. Years ago, I thought it was Black & Yellow!


      John

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      Post #55015, posted on 11-05-2014 GMT-5 hours    
      Some new updated information from Ben (President Braniff Preservation Group). From an archived interview with Philip George (Harper & George Ad Agency), the (2) 'Panagra' colors were NOT the same colors used by Panagra but were 'inspired' colors, close to the actual Pan American-Grace DC-8's! Most of us had been told these (2) colors were in addition to the new H & G 1967 new colors but as it turns BOTH DKPG and PY were H & G created. Also an interesting story on H & G New Green is being learned and will be in Chapter #10....Jeff Jarvis mentioned in DKPG-Chapter #1 that the Green did not look like the Panagra Green and he was correct! I have updated this new info into the original DKPG and PY Chapters....




      John

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      Post #55022, posted on 11-07-2014 GMT-5 hours    
      Greetings!

      I know many of you probably already know this, but if you google panamericangrace.com you'll find a website devoted to Panagra, it's people, airplanes, history, everything in general. You'll find lots of photos, many of them in color, and taken in many different places around their route system. Braniff benefitted greatly from the integration of Panagra in 1967 because Panagra had truly pioneered flying in the Andes and had a fantastic reputation for dependability.

      Regards,
      Jeff Jarvis

      PS: Bear in mind when looking at the photos that color shift over the last fifty plus years has made the yellow less of a pastel lemon and the green darker and less bright than as it really appeared on the prop airplanes.

      God's "Curse" to aviation!

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      Post #59085, posted on 07-21-2015 GMT-5 hours    
      Planning to do a complete rewrite on Chapter #1 DKPG soon, as some new photos and information have been found. It turns out the DC-8-62 in the BEST OF section is actually a Light Panagra Green with bare-metal engines from 1971 which now confirms (2) -62's did have this late 'JB' color scheme modification. So now looks to be (3) 707-138B's, (2) DC-8-62's and (1)707-327C did get the bare-metal modification at the end of the 'JB'-era.....Since no photos have been found of the DKPG Electra (which Chris confirms), Eric will be making a photoshopped DKPG L-188 N9708C for illustration purposes only. It was repainted in Lime Green in early 1968.



      John