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      mark m


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      Post #70493, posted on 08-04-2018 GMT-5 hours    
      Well,

      I was going through all of my 707 kits which I built some time ago and not surprisingly, most of them are the wrong version for what they were suppose to be. It still amazes me that you can't get a 1/144 707-120 series aircraft given the historical significance of that plane. So after spending way more time researching than you probably should, I came across some forums talking about the Revell kit. Particularly the Revell 1/144 E-3A kit. It appears that it has a 707-120 wing. So, what has to be done to that kit to get a 707-120 or is there a better kit to start with for that 707?

      Thanks,

      Mark

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      Post #70494, posted on 08-04-2018 GMT-5 hours    
      Despite its age, the Revell kit is still your best bet for a 707-120, and built with care it will give you a very nice one. I think the JT3C engines on the non-fan variants are a little anemic and don't get the organ pipes correct. If you can somehow scare up some JT4s you can also build a Braniff -227, which used the same basic airframe.

      For an accurate 707-120B (with JT3D engines) you'd need to add the inboard leading edge glove - a subtle but noticeable modification - and add length to the tips of the stabilizers. The Revell JT3Ds look okay but are simple. But overall the airframe is decent. Revell generally got things right on that generation of airliner kits.

      If you wanted to put the work into stretching a Roden 720B kit, that would be another option for a -120B. It would give you the wing with the glove already molded in, but you'd have to scare up some plugs from somewhere to extend the fuselage. Personally, I'd go with the Revell kit, perhaps with a cockpit cab from a Minicraft or Daco 737.

      Jodie Peeler

      In 1924 Wien was Alaska's first airline. In 1980 it still is.

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      Post #70495, posted on 08-04-2018 GMT-5 hours    
      You were reading my mind!


      I spent a good part of the day researching 707 kits and the aircraft I want to build. I think that you can build a 707-120B by inserting a 3.53mm plug in front of the wing and a 14.11MM aft of the wing on a Roden 720B kit. The donor kit would have to be another Roden kit I would guess to guarantee that the fuselage lines up. A bit pricey. Around the cost of the AA 707's if Kurt did a 707-120B.


      I will see if I can find a Revell kit to build into a 707-120 in Pan Am livery. Will the Revell E-3A kit work or does it have to be the old Revell 707 kit? That one is harder to find and a lot more expensive.

      Thanks,

      Mark

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      Post #70496, posted on 08-04-2018 GMT-5 hours    
      The E-3A kit is the same basic plastic, but it comes with the JT3D turbofan engines. For a straight -120 you'll have to scare some JT3Cs up from somewhere. The ones in the Roden 720 (not 720B) kit are too large. Kurt did do a set of JT3Cs for the Roden 720, but I don't think they are in production at the moment. I hope he will do another run of those engines because I sure could use another set or two.

      The rest of the airframe in the E-3A kit will be fine if you can solve the engine dilemma.

      There's been some criticism of the Roden 720 but I think it's a very nice kit that builds easily and yields a sharp-looking model. I'm really happy with the one I built. It's too nice a kit to chop up as a parts donor - better to cut a single fuselage and make resin plugs through some creative molding techniques or by making sheet plastic plugs the old fashioned way.

      Jodie Peeler

      In 1924 Wien was Alaska's first airline. In 1980 it still is.

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      mark m


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      Post #70497, posted on 08-04-2018 GMT-5 hours    
      I have a couple of sets of the AA JT3C's so I can use those. So the Revell E-3A kit will be the one.

      I really like the Roden kit. The JT3C's from AA and the ones on the Roden kit are pretty close so I am not sure what the complaints were based on. The Roden kit goes together very nicely!

      Thanks Jodie!

      Mark

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      Post #70498, posted on 08-04-2018 GMT-5 hours    
      When the Revell 707 came out, the 120 was the only kind of 707 that existed.

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      Post #70501, posted on 08-05-2018 GMT-5 hours    
      One other thing to keep in mind. The early Pan American 707-120s had the short tail; some of the Revell kits have the short tail (Original AA 707, the E3, and the newer United 707). Others have the taller tail (some of the Lufthansa releases, the KC-135, and I believe the turbofan powered versions). So, depending on which kit you end up getting, you may have to shorten the tail, or in the case of the KC-135, remove the refueling bubble to get to the -120 for your Pan Am.

      Gene
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      mark m


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      Post #70502, posted on 08-05-2018 GMT-5 hours    
      Thanks Gene!


      well, I am still confused. The spec sheets for the 707 say the 120 was 144 ft 6in long. When you do the math:

      (144 * 12) + 6 then divide that by 144, you get 12.04 inches. That is pretty much what the Minicraft 320 kit comes out to.

      The 320 is 152 ft 11in long. That comes out to 12.74 inches in 1/144 scale. So it appears that the Minicraft kits are a 707-120 fuselage.

      So if the E-3A kit is an accurate 707-120 fuselage length, I should expect the E-3A to be the same length with the proper wings.

      Does that sound correct?


      Ooooof!

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      Post #70503, posted on 08-05-2018 GMT-5 hours    
      The Minicraft 707-320 fuselage length scales out essentially correct according to the table of scaled-down figures in Alwyn Lloyd's Boeing 707 in Detail and Scale. The Revell 707 comes out to about 0.15" too long, give or take. If this bothers you, take out a little fuselage length, but it's a discrepancy you have to really look for. I substantiated this with one each kit from my stash.

      To be honest, the fuselage stretch on the Intercontinental models is there but is kind of subtle unless you count windows or really know what to look for, and many's been the time I didn't know if I was looking at a photo of a -120B or -320B unless I got a look at the wing configuration. It's not the dramatic length difference of the 720 or the 707-138s. Unless you're absolutely particular about getting the measurement exactly correct, I'd just leave the Revell fuselage length alone. I'm not sure if it's worth the surgery. To me, that would be time better invested in grafting a Minicraft or Daco 737 cockpit cab to the forward fuselage, or resculpting the cockpit windows of the Revell plastic. Fixing the "face" of the Revell kit really makes it look good.

      Jodie Peeler

      In 1924 Wien was Alaska's first airline. In 1980 it still is.

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      mark m


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      Post #70504, posted on 08-05-2018 GMT-5 hours    
      Thanks Jodie,


      I think I figured out my mistake when I found a drawing with measurements for the 727. I measured from the tip of the fuselage to the other tip of the fuselage. Apparently I should have measured from the rear tip of the tail to the tip of the nose. So it does come out pretty close. I can live with .15 inch error on the Revell kit. To get a 138 I would just do surgery on the revell kit. Still would have to deal with getting a tall tail for a 138. There is a decal for the Qantas delivery livery for the 138. It is made by Hawkeye Decals in Australia. That would be a neat addition to the collection.

      Thanks again,

      Mark

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      Post #70505, posted on 08-05-2018 GMT-5 hours    
      The tall tail modification on a short-tail kit is an easy modification. Since it was a simple extension to the top of the tail, all you need do is stack some strips of .040" sheet styrene to the top of the tail until you've added the needed height, then glue it in place and sand it to shape, and then glue the HF antenna fairing to the top and fill/sand everything to final shape. Nothing changed about the rudder itself; it was just an extension to the fin cap.

      Jodie Peeler

      In 1924 Wien was Alaska's first airline. In 1980 it still is.

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      Post #70506, posted on 08-05-2018 GMT-5 hours    
      Not entirely true. The rudder itself did change. On the short tail with the unpowered rudder there was a small teardrop fairing that projected out past the trailing edge. On the powered rudder/tall fin, the fairing and aft projection were absent, and there were stiffener dimples all the way down the trailing edge (except for the trim tab area).

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      Post #70507, posted on 08-06-2018 GMT-5 hours    
      Mark, be careful when comparing kits, as the Revell kit is listed to be 1/139 scale, while the Airfix and Minicraft kits are 1/144.

      Gene
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      Post #70509, posted on 08-06-2018 GMT-5 hours    
      Quote
      Jennings :
      Not entirely true. The rudder itself did change. On the short tail with the unpowered rudder there was a small teardrop fairing that projected out past the trailing edge. On the powered rudder/tall fin, the fairing and aft projection were absent, and there were stiffener dimples all the way down the trailing edge (except for the trim tab area).



      While I will concede your point on these differences, my main point to Mark was that the SIZE of the rudder did not change.

      Jodie Peeler

      In 1924 Wien was Alaska's first airline. In 1980 it still is.

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      Post #70510, posted on 08-06-2018 GMT-5 hours    
      That is true.

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      Post #70516, posted on 08-07-2018 GMT-5 hours    
      The length measurements on the 707s all include the overhanging tailfeathers, which were larger on the 320

      Type Fuselage LOA
      320 145'6" 152'11"
      120 138'10" 144'6"

      http://airlinercafe.com/page.php?id=428

      Basically, it was 4 frames fuselage delta.

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      Post #70517, posted on 08-07-2018 GMT-5 hours    
      Had to run out the door, hence the abbreviated post. The link above might answer a few of the length questions, regarding the 138 specifically, I highly recommend this site:http://www.707.adastron.com/default.htm

      The first 7 Qantas 707s were built as straight-pipe versions with the short fin, then the remaining 6 were delivered in the V-jet scheme as 138Bs while the first 7 were repainted and upgraded. The last two, EBL and EBM, had the new barn door nose gear door and lacked the HF antenna on the starboard wingtip (not 100% sure which one was the last to come with it, check pictures for reference).

      From what I've seen from the kits, the Revell 707 nose is not pretty, I'd suggest a Roden 720 and surgery (make a mold of the forward fuselage, then cut some donuts from that), and some AA engines.

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      Post #70518, posted on 08-07-2018 GMT-5 hours    
      No need to make a mold of the front end. Paul Fisher makes a gorgeous new nose for the Minicraft KC-135 kit that should be virtually a drop fit.

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      Post #70524, posted on 08-08-2018 GMT-5 hours    
      Yeah, I meant the fuselage side if he wanted to stretch it.

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      Post #70532, posted on 08-09-2018 GMT-5 hours    
      I decided to make a 707-120, not sure yet about the -120B though. It will however, not happen before the end of 2019.

      Kurt

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      Post #70538, posted on 08-09-2018 GMT-5 hours    
      VH-EBK was the last -138B delivered with the starboard wingtip HF antenna

      http://www.edcoatescollection.com/ac1/austcl/QantasFleet/VH-EBK%282%29.jpg

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      Post #70539, posted on 08-09-2018 GMT-5 hours    
      Quote
      gavmh :
      I decided to make a 707-120, not sure yet about the -120B though. It will however, not happen before the end of 2019.



      Kurt, if you give us a -120B I will not only promise to buy at least one (and possibly more), but I will be grateful to you forever.

      Jodie Peeler

      In 1924 Wien was Alaska's first airline. In 1980 it still is.

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      Post #70540, posted on 08-09-2018 GMT-5 hours    
      Quote
      TWA Brat :
      VH-EBK was the last -138B delivered with the starboard wingtip HF antenna

      http://www.edcoatescollection.com/ac1/austcl/QantasFleet/VH-EBK%282%29.jpg


      Thought so, thanks for confirming. So it was only the last two that came in 64 that had the barn doors and no fin.

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      Post #70541, posted on 08-09-2018 GMT-5 hours    
      The AWACS Kit came in today. It is pretty rough but it does look like it can be made into something nice. It has the tall tail though. The pics I have seen of short tail 707's looks like it is about half way down to the rudder. Does anybody have that number?




      With Kurt's announcement, I may skip ahead and make this into a 707-138.

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      Post #70542, posted on 08-09-2018 GMT-5 hours    
      awesome news!!!
      A super accurate 707-120 has been missing for a long
      Long time!

      Walter

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      Post #70544, posted on 08-10-2018 GMT-5 hours    
      Mark, the difference in the short and tall tails takes place just above the rudder. The short tail has a short cap above the rudder, while the tall tail has an extended cap above the rudder.

      Gene
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      Post #70545, posted on 08-10-2018 GMT-5 hours    
      If you haven't already, check this out:

      http://www.airlinercafe.com/page.php?id=72

      According to this, the extension to the top of the fin was 40 inches. With the fin cap/HF probe off the tail, take 0.27" off the top of the tail.

      Jodie Peeler

      In 1924 Wien was Alaska's first airline. In 1980 it still is.

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      Post #70546, posted on 08-10-2018 GMT-5 hours    
      Kurt, if you do a 707-120, I will definitely do decals for it!

      Mike

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      Post #70547, posted on 08-10-2018 GMT-5 hours