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      Exile


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      Post #76052, posted on 06-27-2020 GMT-5 hours    
      From Flightradar 24:

      Hundreds of pilots in Pakistan have Ďfakeí licenses. During an update on the investigation into the crash of Flight PK8303, Pakistanís aviation minister announced that up to 262 of the 860 pilots in Pakistan may have cheated on the license exam by having someone else take the exam. In response, PIA has grounded 150 of its pilots and initiated firing procedures against them.

      Al

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      Jeff Jarvis


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      Post #76062, posted on 06-27-2020 GMT-5 hours    
      Greetings!

      This is not really a surprise, at least not to me and many of my fellow retirees who have worldwide flying experience with lots of foreign carriers. I hope not to be taken as arrogant, but the high standards in Europe, North America, Australia and so many other developed countries are not always found to be maintained in other parts of the world, and it can be hit or miss whether or not you are flying on an airline that demands the highest standards in maintenance and flight operations.

      Many of you would not believe how many rich people I have seen over the years, mostly from other third world countries, who believe that since they have paid their money and flown the hours in the training program that they are now owed a pilot license, PERIOD. Whether they applied themselves or actually learned anything or not is IRRELEVANT. I PAID, GIVE ME MY LICENSE. Okaaay.... Yes, you did your forty+ hours, but you have never soloed....... To be fair, long before this I would have counseled them not to waste their time and money, and at the least, had them evaluated by another instructor(s). But, the attitude is the point.

      If there is any good to come from this crash (the "Silver Lining" so to speak), at least it is leading to investigations that will be weeding out the substandard "Pilots" at this carrier who will not be around to kill more unsuspecting people with their lack of proper aeronautical thinking and skills. Criminal proceedings would be in order here as well.

      And for those who tragically died, RIP and may God have mercy on their souls.

      Best regards,
      Jeff Jarvis

      God's "Curse" to aviation!

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      aro757


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      Post #76063, posted on 06-27-2020 GMT-5 hours    
      Saudia 163 comes to my mind right now. I was so mad after finding out the details of that disaster. An incompetent pilot who only got his wings because he had a rich dad.





      Regards,

      ahmed

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      Gus


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      Post #76064, posted on 06-27-2020 GMT-5 hours    
      Hey guys I do agree on all this but I think it's not the correct site to have this discussion imo ?

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      buzz


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      Post #76065, posted on 06-27-2020 GMT-5 hours    
      Quote
      Gus :
      Hey guys I do agree on all this but I think it's not the correct site to have this discussion imo ?



      Then move on. It's in the appropriate section of the site.

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      aro757


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      Post #76067, posted on 06-28-2020 GMT-5 hours    
      Quote
      Gus :
      Hey guys I do agree on all this but I think it's not the correct site to have this discussion imo ?



      I'm not sure why you're so fixated on having the right site for the right type of discussion. We are talking about airlines and airplanes in the "Airlines and Airplanes" section of the forum. Please explain.

      Please note, we also have an "Anything Goes" section in the forum, where you can discuss anything, as long as you follow the forum rules!

      Regards,

      ahmed

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      NinjaFlight


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      Post #76080, posted on 06-28-2020 GMT-5 hours    
      I just flew with an Ex-PIA pilot who is over here now...he also had family connections. This doesnít surprise me either unfortunately.

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      Tango-Bravo


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      Post #76103, posted on 06-29-2020 GMT-5 hours    
      Quote
      aro757 :
      Saudia 163 comes to my mind right now. I was so mad after finding out the details of that disaster. An incompetent pilot who only got his wings because he had a rich dad.



      There is a youtube video detailing this disaster by Allec Joshua Ibay. It was indeed maddening and saddening to see how inexcusable indecision and downright bad decisions by the flight's pilot in command cost so many lives that could have been saved if even a below average pilot would have been in command. The "what was he thinking?" will leave you scratching your head.

      Ibay has a youtube channel covering other airline disasters (and heroic recoveries from potential disasters) that can cause an avgeek (like me) to binge watch.

      Todd
      BJI

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      aro757


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      Post #76104, posted on 06-29-2020 GMT-5 hours    
      Yes, thank you. That's the one I was looking for but couldn't find it the other night. Here it is:





      Regards,

      ahmed

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      Speedbird269


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      Post #76108, posted on 06-30-2020 GMT-5 hours    
      Itís happened before at PIA . Back in 1986 a B747-200 landed without the gear down , the crew forgot to lower it.
      https://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/403390-pia-b747-gear-up-landing-1986-a.html

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      aro757


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      Post #76110, posted on 07-01-2020 GMT-5 hours    
      Just mind boggling!

      Regards,

      ahmed

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      RB211-524


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      Post #76117, posted on 07-02-2020 GMT-5 hours    
      PIA banned from Europe.

      PIA banned until Dec 2020

      Cheers, Stephane

      Frankensteined :
      Zvezda 767-400ER, 787-10, Tu-204-300, Heller A321-200
      Built OOTB :
      Aoshima C-2, MikroMir MD-11

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      Jennings


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      Post #76120, posted on 07-02-2020 GMT-5 hours    
      Sadly, this is no big surprise, and itís **certainly** nothing new. I know that some of the Saudis I knew at Embry-Riddle in 1980 said that exactly the same thing was happening then. Whatís amazing is that there arenít more crashes.

      Similarly, Iíve had people in the industry tell me for decades that many pilots with airlines in the less developed parts of the world can pretty much do ďnormalĒ ops just fine, but throw a wrench into their plans and things fall apart. I think there is any number of accidents that prove that to be true, and while certainly not unique to developing world airlines, but by far the majority of it is with them. The culture of safety and quick thinking initiative that is drummed into pilots in the US, Europe, Oz/NZ, etc is basically absent from many airlines and pilot training pipelines elsewhere in the world. CRM in many of those cultures runs 180 degrees counter to hundreds or thousands of years of cultural development in those societies, and itís still a very long way from being pervasive in their cockpits. Asiana flying a perfectly functional airplane into the ground in severely clear VFR conditions is a prime example. The recent PIA A320 crash is another. A complete breakdown (or lack of) basic airmanship skills in both cases.

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      NX28388


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      Post #76121, posted on 07-02-2020 GMT-5 hours    
      This goes back further than the Saudia TriStar, but if you ever get a chance to read the trip reports that the McDonnell Douglas representatives made after THY put the DC-10 into service, they are interesting reading and a glimpse into a different culture of airmanship. It was eye-opening to them, to say the least, and certainly not what they were used to seeing. The book Destination Disaster (which, despite the title, is one of the better books on the DC-10 affair) has the trip reports as an appendix, and they are interesting indeed.

      Not aviation, but the mindset of "I paid for these hours and I expect to get my certification!" is something we in higher education are on constant guard against - the mindset of "I paid my fee, now give me my C," and the threat to involve higher authority or influential parents if we don't. I have no interest in certifying unprepared students for any field, and I hate to think how I would feel if I had to face that mindset while training students in a field where the consequences for even the slightest error can be instant and fatal.

      Jodie Peeler

      "In any dispute the intensity of feeling is inversely proportional to the value of the issues at stake." - Sayre's Law

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      Tango-Bravo


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      Post #76122, posted on 07-02-2020 GMT-5 hours    
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      Jennings :
      Similarly, Iíve had people in the industry tell me for decades that many pilots with airlines in the less developed parts of the world can pretty much do ďnormalĒ ops just fine, but throw a wrench into their plans and things fall apart. I think there is any number of accidents that prove that to be true, and while certainly not unique to developing world airlines, but by far the majority of it is with them. The culture of safety and quick thinking initiative that is drummed into pilots in the US, Europe, Oz/NZ, etc is basically absent from many airlines and pilot training pipelines elsewhere in the world.



      A curiosity question: Since most airline pilot training seems to be done in flight simulators, which can simulate virtually any and all emergency situations, are all airline pilots, regardless of nationality, required (at least in theory?) to demonstrate that they can handle emergencies properly in a timely manner to become licensed?

      Todd
      BJI

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      Jeff Jarvis


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      Post #76125, posted on 07-02-2020 GMT-5 hours    
      Hello Todd and everyone!

      Basically, in theory, yes. But having said that, you need to be aware that not every emergency can realistically be foreseen or trained for. Many things that happen do not have a procedure in the QRH for the crew to follow. Engineers just cannot design or plan for every eventuality that occurs. And, simulators likely will not perfectly duplicate what you are going to see the airplane do when some of these unforeseen scenarios unfold. Suppose you have a midair or part of the airplane detaches inflight due to metal fatigue or corrosion. You are now in test pilot territory, uncharted waters so to speak. Systems knowledge may or may not be of great benefit here. Simulators are of great value, and good old seat of the pants instinctual flying may save the day...or, not. The point is, simulators are good for developing and practicing flying skills and training for normal emergencies (NORMAL emergencies??) under supervision and developing proper CRM, but they do NOT simulate virtually any and all emergencies. That would be impossible. Still, simulators are an invaluable tool for preparing pilots to fly the line and handle the more common failures that happen. To receive a type rating on the ATP so you can legally fly a jet airliner (old props were the same, but checkrides had to be done in the airplane) you undergo a checkride with very specific maneuvers required by the FAA, and once you have accomplished the check within certain parameters for each maneuver, you continue on with further training and checking beyond that, but you have your type rating. These days a LOFT (Line Oriented Flight Training) program is done in the simulator with various gotchas! thrown at you to test your thinking skills and judgement. These would be things like a divert to another airport, etc. Sounds easy, but not necessarily so...

      Any and all of you with line experience chime in here!

      Best regards,
      Jeff Jarvis

      God's "Curse" to aviation!